About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

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About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby Artemis » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:50 pm

I don't really get what exactly Erim hoped to accomplish at the end. I mean didn't we already learn at the end of Lufia 1 that it doesn't work that way. Lufia survived and all her memories as well as her Sinistral Spiritual Force were gone for good. But nevertheless Erim and all the other Sinistrals returned 100 years later. So why should the outcome after TLR be different...?

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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby SinReVi » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:03 pm

Hmmm okay some theories I thought of:

-Perhaps Arek also plays a role in the revival of the Sinistrals (or at least reviving Erim)
I mean, in Lufia DS Erim is like: "My regeneration powers are gone! I won't regenerate anymore (in the alternate ending), our journey is over, the age of gods is coming to an end blahblah!"
But then Arek (in both endings) is like: Oh no nonono! The age of the gods is not over yet, you want to continue our journey right Dual Blade?"
So maybe Erim did get rid of her regeneration powers at the endings, but maybe Arek did something to revive her again (without telling her about it) because he doesn't completely agree about the age of gods ending this soon. And then repeated it after Lufia I's ending because he still didn't agree. And didn't tell Erim anything again. And then Erim just keeps trying?

- You remember the story about the clowns in Lufia II, about how they're one being split in half and that you have to finish both of them at the same time, or else the other half will revive?
What if the Sinistrals were originally one god, and that they're currently split into Gades, Amon, Erim and Daos, and they too will always revive if they aren't all killed at once, with Dual Blade? What if their original form is Guard Daos (including Erim =P)
Perhaps to get rid of the Sinistrals you have to destroy them all at the same time with Dual Blade. However, there are 4 Sinistrals and only 1 Dual Blade so you'd have to destroy a complete fusion of Guard Daos. If that doesn't happen (like what happened in the games, since we never defeat a complete Guard Daos) the Sinistrals aren't truly defeated.
Erim, being also the goddess of life, will always return to life.
But unlike the clowns, she doesn't instantly revive. It'll take many years to restore a god without help (like, Erim actually calling on the other sinistral's energy waves (making their revivals much faster), but she can't call her own when she's dead, she has to wait until she's regenerated .Gades, Amon and Daos will always automatically revive when Erim's alive, (but Erim can speed up the process? Sometimes the Sinistrals return very quickly after being defeated (Gades returning at the end of Lufia II, although he at least died once half-game. Don't know if the one on the three towers counts as a kill)
But then you'd think at least Erim would tell the heroes about how they have to be truly defeated all at once, at one point. Perhaps she doesn't know about it herself, or there is a fifth god/sinistral involved somehow, meaning destroying Gades, Amon, Erim and Daos isn't enough.


-The Sinistrals say that they have to be defeated with Dual Blade to be truly defeated. What if the opposite is true and this is just a story told to them by Arek? What if Arek told them a fake story about Dual Blade to fool them? Then that would mean Erim being defeated by Dual Blade guarantees her being revived (like Arek wants according to this theory), instead of being gone forever. Since the Sinistrals say thing like: "Ha! You can't beat us without the Dual Blade" , the heroes will do anything to get Dual Blade before getting rid of all four of the Sinistrals, especially Erim, actually making sure they revive.
(If this was true I don't know why Arek would lie about Dual Blade. To make sure Erim will never find out how to truly stop being regenerated?)

- Also, Lufia TLR and Lufia DS hint that Iris and Seena's energy waves do not match Erim's energy waves. What if Lufia, Seena and Iris have their own energy waves, with Erim's energy waves added?
Perhaps at the ending of Lufia I, Dual Blade just removed Erim's energy waves from Lufia's body, and Erim's energy waves are just waiting somewhere to get reincarnated again one day. Same goes for Seena, she kept her own energy waves but managed to get rid of Erim's energy waves.

(disproving my own theory here V)
Well, Iris and Seena knew they were Erim, so they could have used magic to alter their energy waves so I don't know about this theory.
We see Iris using magic to lower the energy waves of Maxim and co. so that Daos wouldn't notice them, since she says Daos finds people through their energy waves (in Lufia DS).

Also, the dialogue between Gades and Maxim in Lufia DS makes me think that one being is only able to have one pattern of energy waves and that when a god changes his physical shape he'll still have that same pattern of energy waves. (Yet the characters still talk about Iris' energy waves being different from Erim's energy waves, I guess when she changes to Iris she also uses the magic to alter her energy waves. And about Gades, I guess he just doesn't bother hiding his original energy waves when he changes his shape, since he doesn't have to hide his identity like Erim. Erim would change her energy waves when she is Iris, because Maxim would be able to recognize them as being the same as a Sinistral, after all Maxim identifies Amon and Daos's energy waves as ones of a Sinistral, after he knew about Gades)

But unlike Iris and Seena, Lufia didn't know she was Erim, therefore she didn't do anything to hide Erim's energy waves. Resulting in the other Sinistrals quickly finding out about Lufia being Erim. In Lufia TLR, both Daos and Milka didn't realize she was Erim. Probably Gades and Amon too, since they recognized Lufia as Erim and acted different when talking to/about Lufia, but they never acted different in front of Seena =P
And perhaps Guy died because of shock when Lufia walked into his house, possibly noticing Erim's energy waves in Lufia and thought it was a confirmation of
Hero's story about the Sinistrals being revived. Before Lufia walked in, Guy is all like "ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE!" But then you'd think Artea and Milka would recognize Lufia's energy waves as Erim's too. So that'd mean Lufia's energy waves are different from Erim (or Artea didn't focus on seeing if Lufia's energy waves match that of someone else. I mean many times during the series the characters don't realize energy waves unless they have a reason to focus on them, or they're being told to notice them being there. Guy was already sort of focusing on energy waves (that of Hero's, then Lufia came in, standing close to Hero. )

(okay, this one theory is getting to complicated *stops writing and goes to bed* feel free to point out holes and blah) Also if their energy waves really are different, then in the ending Seena should be worried about Erim's energy waves coming back somewhere in the future (like about 100 years =P)
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby vivify93 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:18 pm

Wasn't it said that CotS!Iris was suppressing her energy waves with Runa's Ankh? Besides that, the six never met Erim until the very end, and the outcome was a lot different than RotS. Iris blatantly revealed herself as Erim.

Putting that aside, I have a theory on the trilogy's disguised death goddess.

Iris wasn't a different person from Erim. Or rather, she wasn't her own person to start with. She was a guise taken on by Erim to help Maxim start his quest. Iris only matured into someone other than Erim from meeting Maxim and his friends on their travels.

This is where my theory deviates from what a lot of other people believe. Now, Lufia wasn't actually Erim--she was Lufia. However, she had been born with the spirit (Energy waves if you really prefer) of Erim. At the end of the game, Erim's spirit leaves Lufia's body and lets her start over again.

Seena, on the other hand, is really Erim reincarnated as a young lady. She doesn't just have Erim's spirit like Lufia did, she has Erim's mind and body as well.

Call it stupid if you like, but I've been believing that since I first played Lufia 1.
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby DarkMaster2101 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:17 pm

Oh look! Another pointless wall of text by DarkMaster2101 the non-Lufian troll who thinks he's a Lufia fan but his posts are dumb as brown stuff and mean nothing to the community. Let's ignore it.

If you do, then sexual intercourse you my friend.

Anyway. Here's my hypothesis of the situation.

Well, at first in the original Lufia II I thought Iris was Erim in disguise. Mostly due to the fact that Iris in Lufia II never traveled with Maxim; she stalked him. And in Lufia I, Lufia was Erim with amnesia.

However due to law of canology, Lufia II is outdated and Curse of the Sinistrals is canon.

Curse of the Sinistrals changed Iris's role completely. Now Iris is a travel companion that helps the party in the background, so she grows with Maxim and co. But does this mean Erim is a stock one-dimensional character?

I have a theory from when Erim was born (not made like the others, explanation in Oath Under Moon coming much later) someone or something separated her body from her mind. I have a theory that the Runians discovered Erim as an infant during the great destruction of their civilization. So the Runians cooperated with the Elves to create a barrier not even the gods can see through at Cardia temple. There they hoarded soul shards to imprison body to grow (sort of healing capsule like) while Erim's soul/mind/whatever is transferred to a host so she can interact with the Runians to learn about their world.

Eventually the barrier at Cardia Temple faded away. Then Daos discovers Iris and Erim's body. Instead of telling Arek right away Daos kidnaps Iris and hides her in Soma Temple a day before Maxim arrives. In the end, Iris is the host of Erim's mind.

If this theory is correct, then Erim lived in a controlled environment oblivious to the chaotic outside world for generations. She lived happily with the Order of Runia as a member of their family unaware of her sinistral role. When the Order of Runia died down to a pair of elders (so to speak) Erim questions her happiness and the outside world. Also, because the order is dying out Erim closes her heart to attachment, never feeling love because she knows that grief will bring her to madness.

Also, originally the theory dictates in order for Erim to be sealed in a host, the host must "die" in the process. This is due to the human body's limitations of being able to vassal one soul, and the current soul has to be pushed out before a new soul can be implanted.

This doesn't mean Iris never had a soul, but her soul traverses to the afterlife once Erim's is implanted.

Similar to the Avatars in The Last Airbender, the new body doesn't have any conscious memory of being the avatar until after some soul searching. There is where they learn the memories of their past lives. Still, Erim has Iris's memories. So it's like they have identical personalities. We could go into science fiction theories of "new brain, new memory" but this post is already long enough.

If Erim does return to her body, then the body will have no memory due to being in a coma since birth. But the body will obtain Erim's memories eventually either naturally or through soul searching.

I'm debating whether or not Lufia and Seena are two different vassals. Their concept art (pre mobile phone) are virtually the same. The mobile phone artwork gives Lufia green eyes instead of blue (which I think is much more sexy than the full blue pallet). But their build and face structure are nearly identical (just different art styles).

If Lufia is Erim's true body, then she has amnesia because her brain has little physical memory of the world. Still that doesn't mean that Seena is also Lufia. Perhaps the happy ending of Lufia I wasn't so happy after all. Devur and Lufia could have broken their engagement or divorced at the end, causing Lufia to go mad, reunlocking Erim's personality. Even if the story's ending was happy, Lufia could have never aged (due to the false excuse of Flake's "dragon's blood" for Flake is a sorcerer) and Devur dies before she does. That grief could cause her to go mad.

I don't know if Seena planned gathering the world's strongest warriors to destroy her ending the Sinistral cycle or not (because I still haven't had the guts to play TLR) but I know the act means Erim wants to die. She happens to chose the year which the other Sinistrals resurrect.

So what if Erim's body is destroyed. This means that Arek can obtain Erim's energy and form it into whatever he pleases. Similar to Dual Blade and... Oops, better not spoil that plot.

Well... This is only a hypothesis. I wouldn't call this a theory just yet. We need to know if Neverland has any intent complicating Erim's history let alone continue the Lufia series.

At the moment, Erim theories are only fan fiction.

Besides, my hypothesis is a bit cliche.

Hopefully this post won't destroy the topic just like everything else I posted.
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby vivify93 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:54 pm

DarkMaster2101 wrote:Oh look! Another pointless wall of text by DarkMaster2101 the non-Lufian troll who thinks he's a Lufia fan but his posts are dumb as brown stuff and mean nothing to the community. Let's ignore it.

If you do, then sexual intercourse you my friend.

[snip]

Hopefully this post won't destroy the topic just like everything else I posted.

Will you cut that out already? Jesus f***ing Christ on a cake, man. I have not seen one person say ANYTHING negative about you at ALL. I think you're a valued member of the community, DarkMaster. I dunno what goes on in your head, but I like your ideas and as far as I know, so does everyone else.

Just because I have nothing to add to your fan fiction and game ideas and art doesn't mean I don't appreciate it. Do you want comments saying your ideas are liked?

To DarkMaster2101: I, vivify93, wholeheartedly like your ideas and fan-created media of the Lufia and/or Estpolis fandom. I am not just saying this to appease you; I think you have a really talented imagination.
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby DarkMaster2101 » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:33 pm

vivify93 wrote:
DarkMaster2101 wrote:Oh look! Another pointless wall of text by DarkMaster2101 the non-Lufian troll who thinks he's a Lufia fan but his posts are dumb as brown stuff and mean nothing to the community. Let's ignore it.

If you do, then sexual intercourse you my friend.

[snip]

Hopefully this post won't destroy the topic just like everything else I posted.

Will you cut that out already? Jesus f***ing Christ on a cake, man. I have not seen one person say ANYTHING negative about you at ALL. I think you're a valued member of the community, DarkMaster. I dunno what goes on in your head, but I like your ideas and as far as I know, so does everyone else.

Just because I have nothing to add to your fan fiction and game ideas and art doesn't mean I don't appreciate it. Do you want comments saying your ideas are liked?

To DarkMaster2101: I, vivify93, wholeheartedly like your ideas and fan-created media of the Lufia and/or Estpolis fandom. I am not just saying this to appease you; I think you have a really talented imagination.


{]_9)

So, what do you think is going to happen to Erim after Lufia the Legend Returns?
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby SinReVi » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:49 am

I think she is going to keep revived until a game comes out that ends the Sinistral storyline (probably something like Lufia III except it was canceled)
(If they ever stop, I think they're gonna continue with the order of Runa, or at least that's the feeling I got from Lufia DS)

Wasn't it said that CotS!Iris was suppressing her energy waves with Runa's Ankh?

Yeah, but since she is a goddess so I thought she might be lying and using her own power. If she isn't then she probably uses the Ankh.
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby vivify93 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:58 pm

DarkMaster2101 wrote:{]_9)

So, what do you think is going to happen to Erim after Lufia the Legend Returns?

I had an entire fanfic based on that concept. I didn't know what I was going to name it--the preliminary name was "Lufia IV: The End of an Era" but that seemed shallow. It was gonna be based off CotS' world, but also use the stories of TFoD and TLR; it utilized the poor, unused characters from Lufia III: Ruin Chasers.

Taking place in Eastland and moving to Midland and eventually Estoland (Where the Fortress of Doom fell), the major surprise was going to be that Cecil wasn't Erim, but a member of the ancient race of god-worshipers in Estoland. Naki was going to be Runa. However, I discontinued that after becoming displeased with it...

But anyway, I think after TLR it's a done deal. Erim and the Sinistrals are gone. But that's mostly because we didn't get any games after the trilogy. :P Arek is still out there and needing to be dealt with. That's why I was so disappointed when Ruin Chasers was cancelled; it promised a final battle with him. Even if he is the neutral god, or Lord of Gods, or the Allfather, he keeps wanting to test humanity.

In Lufia II, Iris said that humans were in their infancy and still in need of gods. But maybe by Ruin Chasers, they would've been ready to stand on their own. I sort of believe that Iris wordlessly promised Maxim that someday, there would be no need or want for gods in the world of Estpolis.
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby DarkMaster2101 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:04 pm

vivify93 wrote:Taking place in Eastland and moving to Midland and eventually Estoland (Where the Fortress of Doom fell), the major surprise was going to be that Cecil wasn't Erim, but a member of the ancient race of god-worshipers in Estoland...


Really? I always imagined Cecil to be a surprise princess from a major power. An ancient race is just as royal right?

vivify93 wrote:Naki was going to be Runa. However, I discontinued that after becoming displeased with it...


Ah, so no publication any time soon.

Well, no matter. Even if you believe Lufia TLR is the last game in the series, who knows if Neverland is going to make games in the future. Arek in CotS says that there will be endless adventure. Maybe we'll get a TLR remake that changes the ending.

Would you like to see a TLR remake for DSi/3DS/Wii/Wii U Ware?
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby SinReVi » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:53 pm

Cecil, Naki and Erim, in my imagination they turn out to be the same one person.
Kinda off-topic because of the Ruin Chaser talk here: Some while ago I had a dream that after Lufia DS was released, Square-Enix/Neverland announced they'd release Ruin Chasers as a action RPG for the 3DS, except later they announced that this version of Lufia III was also cancelled and they said the reason was because of lack of interest from people.
If it was real, I would buy it!


Lufia TLR says that the Spiritual Force has been getting weaker since Lufia II/I, and that the Spiritual Force was stronger while the Sinistrals were around during the game, so... I like to think that the Spiritual Force is connected to the gods, and that the weakening of the Spiritual Force over the years means that the time of gods actually has started to end since the Sinistrals were defeated for the first time by Maxim, and 100 years again by Hero. Also some bits of dialogue that hint that the other Sinistrals are acting more human during TLR.
Perhaps Erim has some effect on Gades, Amon and Daos, but they don't understand humans (yet?) like Erim does
Next game should have Daos with amnesia travelling with you instead of a Erim in disguise or something =P Maybe then Daos will understand?
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Re: About the plot at the end of Lufia - The Legend returns

Postby vivify93 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:51 am

DarkMaster2101 wrote:Really? I always imagined Cecil to be a surprise princess from a major power. An ancient race is just as royal right?

Yeah. They had the uncreative name of the "Sacrens," obviously derived from "sacred." Since it was said Cecil was a controller of dark magic, my explanation was that it was one of the Forbidden Artes that were taught to Omnimages in Estoland. What happened was that the Oracles Cardinal were gonna be trying to revive the Allfather, Asura--who was really female and the Goddess of Fury. To do this, they needed to sacrifice one of great magic potential, who was supposed to be Naki.

Little did they know they were trying to sacrifice the Goddess of Love. :lol: Anyway, Cecil found this out and had her memories wiped, and was dumped in the city Cion and his dad Raldorn were living in, which in keeping with JRPG tradition was their hometown. Knowing nothing about anything, she became a street performer for spare gold.

Her magic really worked though, and it wasn't even wave magic but real spells. There were going to be both, Wave Magic and True Magicks. Cion and the others could use Wave Magic, but Lily, Yu and Cecil had the ability to use True Magicks. Cecil's name was also going to be spelled slightly differently in a more feminine form: "Cecile."

DarkMaster2101 wrote:Ah, so no publication any time soon.

Unfortunately not, but I think I just might start up the basis for it again.

DarkMaster2101 wrote:Well, no matter. Even if you believe Lufia TLR is the last game in the series, who knows if Neverland is going to make games in the future. Arek in CotS says that there will be endless adventure. Maybe we'll get a TLR remake that changes the ending.

Would you like to see a TLR remake for DSi/3DS/Wii/Wii U Ware?

...Actually, I think I'd like an actualized Ruin Chasers more. Maybe as a final game to make it a nice, blocky quadrilogy. Curse of the Sinistrals, Ascent of Doom, A Legend Reborn, Ruin Chasers, and maybe a Ruins of Lore remake that didn't suck? Tia would have to be added as Dekar's love though. :P The fanboy in me would die...

Dekar: Tia, I, that is, um...
Tia: *Smiles* Yes, Dekar?
Dekar: D-do you wanna be the one to pour my morning coffee from now on?
Tia: AAAAAHHHH YES YES YES YES *pounces on Dekar*
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